S2E5: In Collapse, The Fundamentals Matter

When everything needs attention, how do we decide where to begin and where needs are greatest? Pay attention to the fundamentals. In this episode, Norma Wong lays out a roadmap for focusing on basics and talks fundamentals with Executive Producer Na'alehu Anthony and guest Ariel Jacobson - what they are, how to execute them, and  how an interdependent world shapes them.

In this episode:

• Affordability as the word of the year, and maybe the decade
• Is migration a choice in an interdependent world?
• Why Europe is reversing its stance on dams
• The hidden industrial weight of AI and data centers
• Working at scale - the household, the community, and what neither can do alone

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Aloha. You know, in collapse, what matters? Really, we're talking about fundamentals here, and this is the crux of this particular episode. How do we get down to the basics? What matters? Aloha, welcome back. This is the Horizon Story Podcast. And you know, we're talking about the what it is that when things are not working, that we have to pay attention to in particular. How do we know what we should do and how do we know when should we do it? And this is where we have to actually look at everything as a whole rather than policy issues or policy questions, or even what any particular political party or legislative body might say. We should have our eyes wide open. Makka'lah. Take a look and see what is happening. Where are the needs? It's important for us to know that. Where the needs are the greatest is where we should pay attention, where we should figure out. If we're advocating for things that the government provides or that policy would solve, then that's where we should look. If we're looking at how we might supplement that which government or programs or institutions are no longer able to figure out for us, then that's where we should begin with the fundamentals. So let's talk about some of the fundamentals. It's really not surprising that we might begin with food. Food is so fundamental in terms of human life, or all life for that matter, right? All animals, uh, all beings, all plant life require some aspect of food in order to just survive on a daily basis. So when we say that we're entering a period in which that cannot be guaranteed, even in one of the richest countries in the world, one of the most resourced countries in the world, then we really do have to pay attention. It would be an indicator, it would be a sign. Right now, there are about 13.7% of the U.S. population, or 18 million households, that would be getting some kind of food assistance. And part of the strain right now is it's going in both directions, which is that we are uh re-evaluating how it is that you qualify for all of this. And it's coming into a different kind of debate than one might normally talk about just here's the need and here is what we must do. Without getting into that complication, it's important for us to mark that within about 18 to 24 months, we're likely to get to about 25% of the population of this country who will be in need of some kind of food support. That's 85 million people who live near you who are gonna need some kind of food support. Now, uh these numbers come to us from various sources, uh, but not the government per se, because the annual hunger study has been canceled. And so I'm not gonna go down the road as to why that is so or who made the decision. It's just that that particular study is no longer being done within this country at the moment. But the numbers from various sources bring us close to the 25%. This number is also reinforced by the uh two things. One is income inequality, and the other is the rising cost of all things, including food. So if you are a meat eater, beef costs have been on the rise for some time, some of that by uh government decisions, but also because uh drought conditions within the country have made it more expensive in order for there to uh be uh high-producing cattle, and have indeed made the current uh livestock essentially not don't grow, they just don't grow as fast. And so if they don't grow as fast, then there isn't as much meat as there used to be. There's also the complicating factor of political decisions that have been made about what happens with programs like SNAP, which is the nutritional assistance program that we've had within this country. The good news with food is that this country has enough food to feed everybody. It just needs to be redistributed. And so the redistribution of that food becomes a task. As the people in Maine, and the story that I told in an earlier episode uh understood when they fed uh folks that were in their town and the surrounding areas, you know, for 25 days, right? Dinners six nights a week, 5,300 meals, was really about the redistribution of food and doing that in community in ways in which the food would sustain more than uh just our appetites. So we have food, we have shelter. Affordability is the word of the year. It may be the word of two or three years, as it turns out. Now, we in Hawaii have long had an affordability problem with housing. That's because we have a limited amount of land, and we have a limited amount of land that is good to build things on. So a limited of the limited, and everything has to be shipped in. So every single nail, every single board of uh uh terms of uh of wood, uh, you know, for all of the things, uh all the things that you would put into a house have to be uh brought in. So you put the two together, and we've long had an affordability problem with housing. But there is something that happened within the country as a whole that before the pandemic, you would talk, you would hear housing talked about in some places, but not in all places. And today, affordability of shelter is an issue everywhere in this country. And it's relative. For some places, the fact that the average cost has gone up, the median cost has gone up to, say, $250,000 is like astronomical. Whereas in Hawaii, if you talk about $250,000, they would wonder if it's one of those houses where the termites are holding hands. So it's all relative to the place. Nonetheless, what it means is that uh people are spending far more than 30% of their household income for shelter, and that is the threshold. So there are actually one in six households that are spending more than 50% of their household income on shelter, and that's 20 million households within the country. So affordability. If shelter is expensive, it tends to mean that you uh have to actually put off decisions. Uh you may rent rather than purchase. You may rent with uh multiple people, which by the way, in Hawaii we've long done. We can tell you a little bit about how to do that. But it also means that if both food and shelter are expensive, you're going to be making choices between the two. Let's take power. In most places in the country, electricity is how it is that you generate power for all the things, all the things of modernity. And right now, the cost of electricity is outpacing inflation. That's always bad news in terms of the outlay that any household is spending for that. Now, in my house, we actually are not big electrical users. And so uh the number, how much we pay, even though it's the highest rate in the nation, that the size of that electrical cost as part of our monthly costs is not high. In fact, it's so not high that uh I don't expend enough on a monthly basis to be able to amortize uh solar panels, for example. And uh and that's a shame because as much as we can, everyone should try to make the push to other sources of electricity. But it literally would not uh make sense for me financially for me to do that as a single household. Electrical costs right now are also beginning to feel the push of what's happening in the Straits of Hormuz. So oil as it is becomes a short supply in different places in the world begins to impact every other place in the world. So the fact that the United States of America mostly gets our fuel for things like electricity on a domestic basis does not mean that we are therefore sheltered from the increases in costs of fuel across the globe. Electricity is also becoming a factor in the AI debate. Okay, electricity and water. So artificial intelligence cannot happen without these huge industrial complexes called data centers, which are essentially tricked-out warehouses that consume enormous amounts of electricity and enormous amounts of water, because as the data center is churning and just examining like all the data of the world all the time, that what happens is that the equipment heats up. And they haven't been able to resolve that in a way that would not involve water. Water that would serve as a cooling system to keep all of that equipment from heating up. Let's just give you a sense of how hot the equipment gets. With the water being used to cool the systems so that they are still operating, it will still increase the temperature of the ground by 10 degrees. Think about that. That's how much heat, that's how much electricity has to be used. So everywhere, everywhere in the country where data centers have come up, and by the way, in other countries other than the United States, that the enormous amounts of electricity, the enormous amounts of water place the communities that surround those data centers at risk for higher costs and actually less reliability. And it's less reliability because the systems would put a premium on making sure that the data centers never crash. Okay? So therefore, when there are different loads on the system, the data centers, those corporate warehouses that generate all of that data that you know we asked the question of. So the question is, how will that balance out or not? What happens when four to seven million people lose their insurance? If they don't access the healthcare system on a regular basis, which is what happens when people lose their insurance, then chronic conditions and acute conditions arise without being prevented at the earlier part of whatever that condition happens to be. And the earlier preventive or intervention types of need uh care is actually the most efficient, least expensive kind of care. So we are trading both the future and the present by believing that we can go through society essentially and just not manage the care that people are able to get. One-third of the Medicaid uh uh folks uh have been disenrolled already. Okay, and that puts more pressure on the system. Uh so if you don't have your health care coverage and the food is becoming more expensive, and the housing is more expensive, and the water is more expensive, well, you can see how that goes. Okay, one one-third of the world will be at risk for potable water by 2032.

unknown 17:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Now, much of that is not in this country, but here's the thing that what happened that happens when people lose their potable water. What happens is that life in that area becomes much more difficult. And when life in that area becomes more difficult, they are more prone to thinking about, oh, moving. They're prone to think about moving. And so it's like the drought that occurs far, far away from a country like America or Canada or France or Germany, that that drought affects us too. Because people will need to seek out of just pure survival, live in other places. And so they will take up migration. You'd say, oh, migration is a choice. Well, sometimes it is a desperate choice, and so therefore, water becomes a very critical thing. How do we keep our water not only pure and clean, but also available? How do we put up guardrails to make sure that it's not only the drought that is losing up the water? In Europe, there is a uh uh a whole move now, you could say it's a movement in of itself, to take down the dams. And the reason why they're looking at taking down the dams is because the dams, the DEA DAMS, the dams no longer produce as much electricity because the water supply has gone down. And so they've become very inefficient as hydroelectric sources. And so it's been possible to make an argument to take the dams down. What happens when you take the dams down and the rivers run free? When the rivers run free, the water all along the way at the source and along the river is no longer as hot, no longer as warm. It is cooler by many degrees, sometimes upwards of 20 degrees cooler. And not only does that restore the ecosystem, it actually means that all along the way, less water is losed to things like evaporation, lost, right, to things like evaporation. Less water becomes non-potable. Less water is essentially lost to not only the ecosystem, but for human habitation. And so everything about opening up a dam brings more possibility. Okay. I'm not even talking about cleaning up the water, you know, the forever chemicals, the pollution, all of those kinds of things that we now are paying the price for, right? We're really paying the price for. It's like not, it's useful to not play the game. Oh, well, if the regulation says that this water with this much pollution will mean that you can still drink it. Well, what does that mean in terms of downstream? And by downstream I mean 10 years hence, what kind of conditions will people have? What kind of conditions will the fish have? That would mean that the ecosystem becomes less and less and less healthy. Okay, food, shelter, electricity, health care, and water. Very, very basic. Can we pay attention to those things? And pretty much in that order. Pretty much in that order. Friends, we'll be back to talk more story about these things that matter. Hello folks, we're back with Naalehu and Arial, who are gonna help me dig a little deeper into this notion of in this critical moment when we both have more. Needs and systems are struggling, what should we really focusing on? What are the fundamentals? Thanks for coming back.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah, thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Yeah, thanks, Norma. And you know, you're really giving us a roadmap here, I think, for focusing on the basics, you know, food, shelter, healthcare, electricity, water. And um how do you think about like what people who are just struggling day to day to like put food on the table or make rent, like what can folks do to, you know, focus on those basics? I think the feeling is we are focusing on those basics by just trying to like eke through day-to-day, right? So what do we do to kind of like maybe turn toward each other a little bit more and focus on them together?

SPEAKER_04 22:46

Well, I think that one of the biggest opportunities we have is actually in the area of food, which is to say that although uh, you know, upwards of 25% of the population is going to need food assistance, we have food in this country that can be distributed. And so the aspect about redistribution of food in this country is very dependent on volunteerism. As long as you're not talking about like a government program. Okay, and if we're saying that for various reasons, uh SNAP, which is one of the most efficient ways of helping to support food redistribution, because a person has uh a card and they go to a grocery store or a farmer's market, right, and they basically buy that food, which means that everybody along the chain of the food gets paid, right? And uh so it's like food assistance is also farmers assistance, is also economic assistance, you know, all those things. But for so you can go and advocate, right, for SNAP, but you could also be part of the gigantic volunteer chain that will be necessary to be able to get food to where it's needed and not require people have to seek out their own food. It's like the mobility of food now is like extraordinarily important. So that's one example.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

I mean, we saw that during COVID, right? Where we would renegotiate the pathways for how food moves from farmers into people's hands.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

And I think you know, there are those are opportunities that can show that you know there is robustness, whether you're in Hawaii or California or other states that are producing food. I think there's also like a piece of the puzzle here that says, like, well, we can sustain that for some amount of time without intervention in some way, right? Like during COVID, we we saw that those food chains upended. Why? Because we weren't seeing 30,000 uh visitors coming a day. That's right. So we had to redistribute the food in a different way to get to different people, and so I think this is also just about the way at which we move resources and the cost of those resources as we talk through what actually happens with them. I think like the energy conversation is really interesting. It's like um there's a huge paradox, right? The turn back towards uh burning of oil, uh, maybe a short-term solution, but certainly there are other countries that are making headway with respect to renewables that will change the cost per kilowatt hour for them into the future and will also decouple them from uh the cost of burning oil uh faster than the rest of us. You know, Hawaii is certainly within in that in that realm where we're one of the last states is burning as much oil as as we are per capita and not having moved towards a more robust renewable portfolio.

SPEAKER_04 26:09

And I think that actually, like in the case of Hawaii, although this is not just for Hawaii audiences, right? We we are uh we are a case study, uh, I believe, in um in like how large of a system is it useful to serve the number of people that you have, and that uh it's it's like we're moving now into a period of time in which when you when you essentially say, well, you know, Oahu only has uh what 1.2 million people, about that. And they would say, well, that's barely the size that you would need for one grid. Yes, if you're looking at a traditional way in which you look at an electrical system. But we I think we're moving into a situation now and conditions and also just the science and the and the engineering has developed to a point where smaller microgrids may now make more sense. And when you go to smaller microgrids, then you can also look at uh less industrial size alternative energy, right? So I think that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

You know, like Hawaii is an interesting set of cases because you actually have six independent grids, right? Each island is not connected to anything else. And so the neighbor islands are actually much closer to getting to 100% renewable than Oahu, right? The challenge that you come across with microgrids is um is calling out what the purpose is of the microgrid, right? And if you're trying to drive price as far down as possible, then microgrids costs per capita, per solar panel to administer them and to run them actually is pretty expensive. But if you're talking about like energy sovereignty community by community, then there are a lot of communities who actually call for that, right? And I think part of this is like uh in in your uh case statement about data centers as well as in um grid scale electricity, whether it's solar, wind, geothermal, um you have communities that are not wanting to bear the burden for large-scale anything that is gonna go off and feed um other communities. And so you see that uh in small communities saying, no, we want enough to feed our community, but we don't want the excess and the burden of that excess to go and go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

Yes, and so there is that part where uh, you know, it's like I I think that we went for uh three or four decades, right, where we essentially said, what improvement looks like is to get bigger. And and we're now in a situation where uh just the conditions mean that if you're bigger, then if you go out, you impact more people, right? And so like there are many reasons, uh many of them strategic reasons, uh not to go to uh single large systems um anymore. But there's also the thing about it's like uh like you're talking about like um you know, like communities that have data centers are catching most of the uh impact without getting most of the uh you know the benefits, right? And industrial anything kind of fits into that category. So interrupting that particular um design paradigm, right, is you know, is is is part of the work that we have right now. Yeah. You know, when we were in the Dakotas uh uh Lehu, you know, talk about like uh uh those are places that you literally because of the conditions, both of the ground but and also of the of the climate would mean that it's impossible to grow produce. You can grow bison, but you can't grow produce, right? Uh and so the uh really growing produce inside makes more sense than growing it on the ground. But you can't grow produce inside unless you break the notion of how much electricity you're gonna pay, right, of uh in order to grow that produce. Uh so having very localized alternative energy that essentially is, you know, right? Like very localized, plugged into uh not a grid, but plugged into a little bit of a system that is associated with the growing houses and the refrigeration houses and you know, like all of that. And then doing it on a community basis so that it's not small units, right? Everybody with their own garden, right? You know, so it's like that type of right sizing, but bringing it down to the community scale, where that which you're developing and who you are benefiting is right right there, right there.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Yeah, I think it that's a helpful way to kind of link some of these different fundamentals because I think one of the things that can be difficult to wrap our heads around is this question of scale, right? Because I think we've been so trained to think bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and it's always kind of the sprawl of that, um, of industrializing systems. Um yet I what I hear you talking a little bit about is kind of how do you come into useful relationship with multiple layered aspects of um different sizes, maybe, right? That there may be in one case um household gardens, in other cases, maybe medium-scale producers of say protein, right? That is very difficult to produce on a household level. That's right. Right. And there's absolutely no way that we can think of meeting our full nutritional needs household by household in our production, right? That's right. Um but maybe layering these together, is that part of the answer?

SPEAKER_04 32:33

Yes, I I I believe that's the case. And the other part is like uh like only in a very few places there we can say the exception is that small places and small uh communities uh could go completely off the grid. So what we're talking about is we're talking about piecing these things together, right? You know, it's like, okay, so you go to Costco and you go and buy your things in bulk. Well, you know, your community garden have you know 25 families that contribute. And of the 25 families, well, let's say only 10 of them, if they grow something, something will grow. Well, those 10 families should be the ones that grow, and then the other 15 families would have other responsibilities, other duties, you know, distribution maybe. Maybe they're in distribution, or maybe they're the ones that, you know, like get told by the people who can actually grow things, well, okay, turn the water on now, right? And you know, right, they've basically become part of the labor of it. Um, and labor in which you're gonna see a direct result of your labor, right? You are going to be sharing in the success of that community enterprise. And then, you know, there's always the auntie who makes the best jam. And so, you know, Auntie gets to take the produce and teach, you know, other people or maybe the young people in that community how to make the jam, and then it becomes an enterprise, right, of some kind that accrues to the community, not just to the individual. But I think more and more of those. And I think that that part of the key now is not to think of these as small exceptions or uh the band-aid that we will do that we will uh engage in until this too shall pass, right? Like it's it's a different thing to say, okay, we can distribute, redistribute uh produce and food during the pandemic, and so we're gonna do all these things on an emergency basis. And another thing to say, well, might this be the beginning of another way that is occurring on a robust and flourishing basis, right, within our communities.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

So I think you know, the the hard part here is that um, like you mentioned in the last segment about just like how stretched some of these families are, and so like if you're gonna uh go work in the community garden, then there's an assumption that you're not working two jobs already and that 50% of the income of everyone in the household isn't going towards you know, rent or or covering the mortgage, because that starts to limit the possibilities of what people can do. I think you know that one of the pieces here is that like when you have um increasing uh food cost tied to energy, you have increasing energy costs, you have increasing gas costs, people who were already at the edge get pushed over the edge. And some of those uh some of those challenges are irreversible. The example would be like the outflux of folks that we see in Hawaii leaving, right? We get you know nine or ten or eleven thousand people leaving every year, right? Almost a thousand a month. And they're not likely to come back. Like once you give up, you have a real hard time making your way back. So there are then these triggers that say, okay, well, you know, this is uh basically irreversible. And I think that's one of the things that we need to really be careful about how it is that we um solve for and balance for. It's like we do not have unlimited amounts of time to solve for some of these things.

SPEAKER_04 36:37

We don't have unlimited amounts of time, including that uh, you know, it's like uh oh we working two or three jobs, okay, um, is what people might need to do to get by. That's long been the case in Hawaii, by the way. And now when I hear uh like people talk about that on the news on the continent as being like a shockingly astonishing thing. And I I think, well, we actually have experience right with that. We have experience, okay. But here's the deal, right? The entire economy of the country is gonna go through radical shifts. And in the radical shifts of the entire economy, okay, you may have two or three jobs, but most of them are gonna be part-time. And there the the aspect about your time is like a good amount of ways in which um like the economy of the country could be humming along and we could all be partially unemployed. Okay, is that right? So we're we're in that. If we're all partially unemployed, how should we employ ourselves in service of ourselves? Understanding that the larger industrial entities are really looking at how to uh make a go of it without as many humans. Okay? All right, okay? Yeah. You know, and so like there's this this way in which the the this sh this big shifts occur. I would say many, many, many, many thousands of experiments are useful before we get to the point where we essentially are uh forced into something, right? For forced into something. The other part is there are many ways to redistribute food. We don't only have to grow the food, right? We actually have lots of food that is already available in this country that is just about redistribution. It it's just about that. But does mean that uh of uh volunteer uh types of operations or operations that make sense that are not volunteer, but are like in like a different kind of gig economy, right? Um that going on. Um I had this conversation in Detroit where um uh they have like food deserts, right? Okay, and the problem is is like how do you economically what how do you make economically make sense of having businesses try to set up you know brick and mortar, right, in a more distributed way, in places where people basically might actually have they'll they buy things, but their purchase power is not you know uh extensive, right? You know what I mean? How do you do that? And so uh uh one things I I uh I mentioned is that back in the day, we used to remember we used to have the uh we call it the yes, I mean the we have those little little food trucks, okay? But rather than having uh um like prepared food in those in those trucks, there were panel trucks, and they would stop and they put up the panel, and there would be shelves, and you'd have like little very neat bags of like produce and some eggs, and then in the refrigerator drawer, a little bit meat and all that kind of you know, things on the other side you have like uh oh laundry detergent, right? You know, bars of soap, you know, shampoo, right? And they just have a few things and they would go uh neighborhood to neighborhood. And they would be there like on Tuesday and Friday or like whatever the days of the week would be. And eventually that gave way to everybody going to the store. So in some of those places where there are food deserts, it may make more sense to have little portable food trucks, just as it makes sense to have portable uh libraries, right? Uh portable health care that doesn't require people to go to the clinics, right, but have people actually in the street itself, right, uh, you know, going from place to place, right? Of course, because of the cost of fuel, uh these mobile um uh uh hubs are gonna need to have like panels on top of the truck uh in order to offset the elect you know the fuel costs. But even with the fuel costs, more efficient, less expensive than some of these other larger scale kinds of solutions.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Yeah, I I think it's really helpful to throw out these examples of things that are already happening on this scale because maybe it will spark somebody for somebody listening and say, you know what, I I might be able to start that where I live. And a couple other examples that come to mind for me where I live in upstate New York is um an activist during COVID, actually started something called Free Food Fridge and just found ways to work with businesses and nonprofits, um, mostly independently owned, and said, Can I put a fridge outside your business and plug it in? And then I'll get donations and I put food in it for free, and people just come and get it. And there's fridges all over the city. Um and then another example is in schools, they've started to create little uh free and low-cost grocery stores. They just um renovated our high school and they put in a whole mini grocery store in the high school, and so people can just take what they need. Um, and I think these are these are examples of things that are happening. And um, you know, I think one of the ingredients that you've kind of named, but uh but I want to kind of tease out a little bit more is when we are talking about paying attention to the basics, the the thread of all of this is community, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

And and so um what do we need to do in terms of paying attention to that?

SPEAKER_04 43:02

Well, um in this particular country, uh there is a strong value on individualism, and uh uh more so than in many countries um in the world. In fact, we've been uh a very good exporter of the notion of individualism, individual rights, individual wealth, individual success. You know, we've exported that idea to other countries. Well, we're now in a moment where it would be a good idea to take a new look at that. This is not, this has never this has not been a country that has always been that. So if you want to look at whether or not we have the cellular memory for something else, we do, we do, we definitely do. And this notion of of becoming more in relationship to each other. Now, some people uh have been experimenting more, for example, uh understanding that uh because of the housing situation, and also because if you intend to age in place, right, okay, that you may need to formulate like uh like found community, right? Okay, found community that would be your found families, that you would uh pool your resources, right, rather than each one trying to make it on their own. And when you do that, you will undoubtedly be able to live better with each other than you would by yourself. This is even if you're only talking about the money side of the equation, but in community, I would say, any storm is easier to weather. So the current storm that we end, which will be a long one, it'll be a long transition, much easier to weather when you are with people and you're solving problems together with people. Friends, we've gotten basically to the end of this time together, but I know that there are threads of this that we essentially just need to carry over into other episodes, right? It's like the what should we focus on, and uh, how should we go about that, and what are the near-term opportunities that might arise from that? So thank you for the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

Thank you. Okay, we'll be right back. In this particular episode, we've been exploring in collapse what should we be focusing on? What should we be paying attention to? What is it that people are going to need, but also that we as people could step in? If we could step in both on a collective basis outside of the system, but also if we're inclined to actually advocate within the system, then what should we focus on? Food and water and shelter and electricity and health care. Really the fundamentals. All of this will matter, and it matters that we do it as a community. We will always be greater than I. And in caring for each other, we will actually discover what it is to be at the new scale of caring for people and caring for humanity. So I think that the opportunities are vast, but we'll talk more about that in the next episode. So I hope you join us in the Horizon Story. Thank you so much. The Horizon Story podcast is produced by Bryson Ho and Sarah Demares de Rivera, hosted and written by me, Norma Wong. Executive Producer Naalehu Anthony, featuring Ariel Jacobson, for Collective Caceleration, Kelly Miller, for OEV TV, Ken Sato, Wesley Kealoha, Courtney Leong, Jeff Lee, and Ivy Lagalagod. For Paakai Communications, Jamila Silver, Diana Hahn, Pearl Thule, Christine Matsuda, Hair and Makeup by Melody Levy, Mahallo to Kalihi, the land of my birth, ancestors, teachers, collaborators, and friends, Rosie Abrium for the support, and Scott Nine and Taj James for the encouragement. The Horizon Story is brought to you by OEV TV, copyright by collective acceleration. Follow us on social at the Horizon Story. Questions to Hello at the HorizonStory.com. Visit us where you find your favorite podcast or at thehorizonstory.com.