S2E2: A Useful Crisis- Finding the Interval In Which Change Is Possible

In this episode, Norma sits down with Season 2 guest Ariel Jacobson to unpack what makes crisis useful and what crisis teaches us about the possibility for change. Norma and Ariel share stories from Maine, Detroit, Hawaii, and beyond, real examples of communities that met their moment when the interval opened.

IN THIS EPISODE

• 危机, the Chinese word for crisis, and what it teaches us about the possibility for change
• Why readiness matters more than reaction: knowing what to do and what we want before the interval opens
• Building the team and the "we" we want to move with, rather than waiting to figure it out alone
• A reading from Norma's book, When No Thing Works, chapter four: "Threshold"

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Aloha. We're back here at the Horizon Story Podcast. You know, in the critical juncture created by collapse, what kind of change is possible? This is an inquiry about the the usefulness of crisis. The Chinese word for crisis is like this. Wu yi. And the Chinese word for crisis has actually two words that make it up. So the second part of the word for crisis, the zi of Wii Ji is a different meaning. It means it's the interval in which change is possible. Which is to say, as far as the Chinese were concerned, that within crisis is the interval in which change is possible, and potentially the only time that that is the case, we are here with my friend Ariel Jacobson, who came and joined us all the way from New York. Aloha.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Aloha, Norma. Thank you for having me. Oh, thank you for coming all the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

All the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yes, it gave me a new appreciation for the miles that you travel.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

So Ariel, tell folks a little bit about yourself and uh, you know, uh, you have a family? I do, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yes, so I live in upstate New York and I live on the Hudson River. I've always lived on rivers, cities with rivers. So not so much an ocean person, more of a river and lake person, but I'm very happy to be here near the ocean. And yes, I have a 12-year-old and a seven-year-old boys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

I hear that they have sports under their skin. Yes, exactly. That's absolutely true. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

The older one is a very talented and very passionate soccer player.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

So yeah. Okay. So that means in in addition to all of your other uh jobs, yes, right. Uh you're the mother of a soccer nut.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yes, absolute soccer nut. And it has permeated the rest of our family now as well. So I've found myself in the unlikely condition of being a soccer nut mom as well.

unknown 2:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Okay. All right. But you're not the typical soccer mom. Maybe not. I like to think of myself as not the typical soccer mom. Yeah. So what makes you not typical? You know, I think because a little bit like you, I I stand on the sidelines and I observe a lot of the dynamics that are happening between the people. You know, what does it mean to be part of a team? What does it mean to, you know, take direction from a coach? Um, I think about space and opportunity even on the soccer field. So uh some of the things that we might be talking about today actually kind of think about it when I'm watching soccer too.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Well, you bring deep observation from something else that's coursing through your genes. Right. And uh can you share a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Um yeah, you know, I think I come from a very long line. I I come from people who are farmers and artists and um musicians, but I also come from a very long line of scientists. Uh so uh especially on my mother's side, my father's side was a little bit more social scientists. My mother's side side was more the hard sciences. So my grandfather was a physicist, my mother is a biophysicist, which means she studies the thermodynamics of protein and DNA interactions. Okay. Um my father's a geneticist, yes. Um, my aunt was a mathematician. So yeah, it's deep observation of the world to draw conclusions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Well, you know, so far, um uh the first guess for the horizon podcast, right? Yes. And the second guest for Horizon Podcasts uh basically have like science and math and observation kind of coursing through your Yeah, it's a little nerd bias on this podcast, maybe just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Just a little bit, just a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

I think that that's actually why it uh made sense um for both uh you and Nan to be the first two guests, not the least of which, both of you are introverts, and I want you know people to know that it's actually okay to have two introverts on set and it won't be a total snooze fest.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Right. Well, we hope not.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Okay, all right. Well, our executive producer said that if we needed to, we could swear on set. Okay. It's not radio, and so we're not covered by those particular regulations. Nice. So we'll see whether we can fit in a few. And if we do, right, someone has to bring it to Nan's attention. Yeah. Right, because Nan always keeps track on when I'm on Zoom whenever I say certain words. Okay. Okay. So we'll, you know, we'll we'll both keep track on that. Okay. Sounds good. So, you know, I've been dealing with this notion of zi, right, which is that interval. And um I think that it's particularly appropriate because uh in the Chinese language, right, is uh very observation uh-driven in terms of how they think about words and concepts, right? So it's a crisis would not be a concept, it would be something they would call that, I would call it Luigi based on their observation of what happens when there is a crisis. And then they would name it, right? So it'd be in that way. And so I think that it that language actually helps us to understand what people who lived a very long time ago and who had deep observational powers, uh, who are effectively the indigenous of their times, right, watched nature and what happens in nature, would call crisis as being this moment where there's an interval where deep change is possible, and potentially only during that time.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Yeah, so one of the questions that comes up for me when you say interval, it makes me think of like a window opening, right? And I think about how in the moment when you are seeing things unfold as a crisis, might you identify that there's a window opening? Because I think in hindsight it may be a lot easier, right? But in the moment, or even maybe not even in the moment, maybe before it comes, you might want to see that there's a potential for an interval of opening. So, how do you identify that?

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Well, if you take it like literally, which is so so there's an interesting thing. I think that in um the Western way of thinking, right, if you say something, people quickly jump to the notion of it being a metaphor rather than it being uh literal and practical. And the Chinese are very literal and they're very practical. You know, it's like uh, you know, I once uh uh bought a large brush that was so large that you had to hold it like this. And I don't need Chinese, so I asked the proprietor, oh, the name on the brush, uh, what is that name so I can refer to it if I want to buy this brush again? And he said, brush hold like a handle. Right, right. Okay, so it's like they're very literal, okay, they're not metaphorical at all, right? So if you take that, then what the Chinese said is whenever there is a crisis, you must look for the interval in which critical change may be possible. Okay, and that this is an interval, it'll open and it'll close. But if you are watching for it, then you'll be able to see certain signs, right, that would be indicators. And the other part is it's also a lesson to always be ready, right? Because opportunity generally, right, it it's it's not like out there all the time. It it opens and closes. You drive into the parking lot and there will be an opening, but if you diddle daddle and go around a few times trying to find something better than that, chances are right you'll miss that chance.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Right. So the interval itself, in a way, is kind of neutral, right? It could be used in whatever direction or to whatever end. Um, and in the parking example, maybe one of the ways that you see that there's an interval opening is somebody has their directional light on, right? It's blinking, and you're so somebody else is ready to take advantage of that interval. Right. So, how might you kind of get ahead and be ready so that when the opening comes, you can move purposefully into it?

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Well, there are two human attributes, right? One is alertness, right? The other is patience, and they are not uh uh opposites of each other. So we need to be alert, but you know, it's like okay, uh, so you see somebody walking in the parking lot and they're walking in a direction, they have their bag and they're walking towards the car, right? Okay, so you're tracking, you're tracking like you're you're tracking like where they're walking and is it in a general vicinity? And you know, if they're walking and it's they keep on walking, it's too far, then chances are it's not going to be a slot for you, unless you're gonna follow them right around the parking lot. Okay, so it's like that that part about being alert is useful, but then you have to also be patient. I find that most people get into the car and then the first thing they do is they take out their device and look at their device. So that means that they're not gonna start the car right away. And so you could literally lose your opportunity because you got impatient and moved on before they put their device down. And wait, and I think that in crisis it's the same thing is that you have to watch for it, you have to get a little bit ahead of the game, and then you have to wait for the circumstance to catch up with you.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

So, in this time of crisis, I've heard you speak about this time as one of multiple crises unfolding at once, right? Poly crisis, right? And so when we think about the critical juncture for change, are we thinking of it as one window that's kind of opening and closing and opening and closing, or are there multiple windows opening with the crises that are also unfolding? And we kind of have to be pivoting, watching in different places. It's like a um a waiting game, that's the patience part, right? Or how do we think about these critical junctures when they close? Um, yes. Will that one open again, or we have to kind of keep moving? We won't know whether that is the case or not.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Okay. But it's also about like when the will we be ready when the interval opens? And by ready, I don't only mean like, you know, there at that moment and uh and willing to physically go. What I mean is do we know what to do and what we want to do because there's an opening? Do we know which direction we want to move in? What do we want to put in place? You know, what messages might we want to bring? What kind of work that we want to do? Have we put together the people, the team that we will be moving with? Or are we going to be the people who like run individually in that interval and then look back and the interval closes and we're trapped on the other side? Okay, right? It's a thing that can happen, right? So there's this part where the waiting is also about getting ready and to get ready every single day and just be more and more ready. And the intervals will open, and sometimes they'll be short, sometimes they'll be longer.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

And do the intervals also interact with how we move into them? I think one of the questions that comes up for me when you kind of bring up this aspect of it being a collective endeavor to move into that interval, is can we actually move into it with our actions in ways that stretch the opening even further?

SPEAKER_02 13:33

I think we can. I think you can. So what comes to mind is uh in Maine, there's a there's a town in Maine where a very small group of people, uh, you know, six folks, okay, uh who have been talking about the future and thinking about the future. And then in the middle of the present, like in the now, right, there's a crisis. And that crisis is the government shuts down, and benefits uh that would accrue to people who need food support uh begin to dwindle. And even people who didn't need the food support are beginning to have a problem because when the government shuts down, it sends a huge ripple, right, across the population. And uh they said, can we manifest what we see in the future today? Can we can we do that? And so it started with six folks, and what they saw in the future is that uh people would eat together. You wouldn't eat like in your individual house, right? It's uh all by yourself. You would be mostly eating in the commons, and so they said, let's go about and do that. And over 25 days, uh, there were 5300 uh dinners uh served and eaten and made, right? And eventually you couldn't tell who were the people who were making the food, who are the people who were there who needed the food, who are the people there who just came for the community, right? And so the six people grew to 120 people in that time. They had farmers that were donating produce, and they had people who were just dropping by for the company. You had the man who lived in a car who found purpose in delivering meals to people who couldn't come, right? And things like that. So they built a community, and when they did that, right, the question for them arose now that that particular crisis is over, what shall we do next? So it became like an opening, right, for something else.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yeah. So in a way, it was like their appetite also grew for being together, moving into other opportunities. So I wonder if there's ways that we can think about even small openings around us in our daily lives? Uh what would you recommend for folks listening in terms of, you know, maybe not always thinking on this grand scale of oh, he's a huge political opening, right? Or something like that, but really just kind of in daily life. How do you find the little openings? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

So how about when you walk on the street and uh you see somebody basically who's like having a little bit of a hard moment, right? And you know, it's like not a big intervention, but when you pass them instead of ignoring them, basically just to turn and just give a small acknowledgement. Now you and I would give a smaller acknowledgement than uh, you know, our friends who are more extrovert in nature, right? But there is that part where that human-to-human contact is the first step. Yeah. Can we take a little break? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Thanks so much. Hello friends. We're back here with Arielle, and we're talking story about collapse and the opportunity in collapse.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah, Norma, you were talking a lot about you know this critical juncture that makes change possible opens as connection to a crisis. And I'm thinking about how that makes us think about we have to move into it, but actually the instinct may be to not move, it may be to freeze, right? I think there's a very real human uh instinct to just kind of hunker down or uh let me stay in my comfortable place, and it may, and I think especially in this time where we have plenty of um shows to uh stream and uh you know, ways to kind of keep ourselves comfortable. Uh how might we think about this tension maybe of there's the alertness, there's the patience, and then there's the need to actually maybe move into some places of discomfort?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yes, you know, so you know, uh in the last couple of weeks I've been in some places uh working with people uh who are unhappy about the situation that's going on right now. Uh they have been doing work uh in their fields for a very long time, and they know that things are changing a lot. Uh, but the problem is that they are still relatively well resourced. Okay, so part of the deal here is that a lot of the reason why the interval opens up is that the need becomes so apparent that you have to move. And I'm not talking about like the intellectual need, right? But it's like, okay, no food, where are we gonna get food? Right? No power, how do we get power, right? Right now, uh Cuba is uh the place in the entire planet that is moving to alternate energy the fastest because right, the various embargoes and the fact that they're not getting aid uh from Russia or China means that if they do not do that, then what's going to happen is that they essentially lose their entire infrastructure, right? Okay, and so uh, you know, when you talk about opportunity, right, uh the Chinese basically offered to bring in the solar technology uh into Cuba. And so they're now the fastest uh conversion economy uh, you know, essentially in the entire globe. Okay. So so it's like the the interval exists, whether or not we feel it, we feel the need to make the move or not, okay, is an entirely different story. So the irony here is that people who have resources who may actually be able to leverage a lot in this moment, if they took advantage of this interval, are among the least likely people to move. Okay, on a natural basis, right? Because the instinct would be, okay, we're just gonna um we're gonna save our resources, or or alternatively, we're gonna spend money because we don't know what's gonna happen next, which is what's keeping the economy at such a hot pace right now, is actually people who have money are spending it down like like you know, like there's no tomorrow, which means that they too think that there may not be a tomorrow, right? But their instinct is then let's live high rather than you know let's move into it. Now, this is this is a gross over exaggeration with respect to, you know, like it's it's not everyone. So the people who feel uneasy about this, if you feel uneasy and you have a question about what it is that you should do, then you should not hunker down, you should move towards. Okay. The people who have no choice are moving towards irrespective of whether or not it might be A a good time for them or not. And that's because they they really have to, right? They really have to.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about these different layers when you talk about crisis and polycrisis, right? That may have just shown up at maybe a more global scale or a more aggregate scale now, but that have been unfolding for some time. And it really depends where you are located, right? Even if you think about like a storm, right? That if you're directly under a particularly dense storm cloud, you're going to feel it differently than maybe at the edge of another part of the storm. Or if you're waiting at the bus stop, you're going to feel the storm differently than if you're in your car. And I think that the folks, I think about communities and folks who are the ones who've been out at the bus stop, feeling the rain for pummeling them for a very long time and saying, um, okay, yeah, we're in polycrisis, but this has been you know happening a little while now. And so um how do we think about the folks and communities who you know have been in collapse for some time, but um have already moved into that opening. Can you give us some examples of that? So sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

So um you and I were in Detroit. Yeah, that's right. Right. Um is it you know, uh, I don't know how many weeks ago it could have been a hundred years or could have been last week. And uh when we were there in Detroit, of which by the way, I've I have read many case studies about Detroit, I've heard many stories about Detroit, but none of those actually um prepared me for the experience of being with the people who stayed behind. Right? So it so essentially what happened in Detroit is that there was this great emptying that occurred because the auto industry uh moved on, right? They moved on from being in particular locations, and they moved on uh to further north, they moved on to further south, right? And they were following uh the a different kind of economic model when they did that. Okay, and so everything that uh uh made Detroit uh began to also uh like deplete it from its center, right? So at the height of its uh population, right? I I want to make sure that I have the numbers correct, because I want to be fair to the people of Detroit. 1.8 million people lived in Detroit in 1950, which would have been six years before I was born. Okay, and so you say, so this is how long collapse has been happening. Okay, so I am just made 70, six years before I was born, was the height of economic activity in that part of the country called the United States, of which I live in and which you live in, right? Okay, and at that moment, what that meant is that they were also enjoying all the possibilities of that. Okay, there was among the highest ownership of homes, right, of households uh in uh any uh city and suburb by uh black Americans, okay, of almost any other place in the country at that point in time. Okay, you had a job, it was more like than likely a union job. Uh you uh you owned your car that you built, right, and you uh and you owned the house that you lived in. Okay. And uh between 1950 and this the collapse, the collapse has started slowly and then actually it just dropped. Okay. And so here in you know in 20 uh 26, there are only 650,000 people, okay, and uh 143,000 abandoned lots, people had to move on. The mortgage that they had would be foreclosed upon, and there would be no jobs, and so they had to move on. So when you and I were in Detroit, a thing that I was not prepared for was for the uh the beautiful resiliency of the people who stayed behind and decided that because they were the people who were still in that place, that it would be left to them to not only survive, but to figure out what the next thing will be for Detroit. Okay, and out of the 143,000 abandoned lots would be opportunity, and part of that opportunity, but the opportunity came because uh you needed to grow your own food. If you had the uh a little bit of land, right, the food that you grew, even in a place like Detroit, which has a long winter, right? Okay, even a place like Detroit has a long winter, might make a big difference, right? Not only in like the household income, but also your worthiness and also about how that neighborhood would look like, right? Is this a place that grew food or is it a place that grew abandoned lots filled with trash? Okay, and everywhere that we went, right, there was evidence of something else that's happening. Okay, so and it takes time, but then it can feel like all of a sudden, right, the blooming occurs. So, you know, in 2004, uh, you know, there was a little bit of a study and they found uh 80 urban gardens, and that was thought to be, oh, like they're in the vanguard, right? This whole thing, urban gardens, what is that? You know, the notion that right in the middle of a suburb or in the middle of a city, right, that you would grow vegetables and flowers, you know, maybe have a few chickens. Uh they might be uh within the law or against the law, but that you would be doing something. In 2004, that was a novel thing, right? I think there are other cities that looked and said, hey, I think we could do that. Well, today, right, there are 2,500 urban gardens. Okay, and those are not only places where food is grown, right? It's where young people go, where they learn something, right, where they help to actually create things, where they have programs with each other, where there's intergenerational fellowship, right? Intergenerational learning, intergenerational care, right? That even in a place that feels like most people abandoned it, right? What can come of it? And you know, kudos to the people who looked around and saw opportunity in that and said, we make with whatever little we have, right? And it'll be good, right? It'll be good.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah. I love that example because what really struck me when we were there together was somebody said, you know, where other folks saw emptiness, right? The empty lots, we saw openness. We saw an opening. And literally that's what they said. And I and I thought, wow, you know, there's something there that they've cultivated that there's there's multiple ingredients to it, right? Like there's a deep sense of connection to the place itself because that arising of all the urban gardens is also very specific to that place, right? Um, it's not something that would sprout, no pun intended, right, anywhere because there's something very specific about the actual collapse, the physical literal uh collapse of structures of the buildings. So they talked about um homes, businesses, schools, churches, right, that had been flourishing in that time period that you shared and had literally been turned to rubble in a lot of cases. But that so they had to transform the space in a particular way. So that connection to place was really important, but it also felt like there was a kind of set of relationships, right? A web of relationships where um there was that readiness to kind of step in. Um so you're talking about preparation to move into a critical juncture. So can you tell us a little bit about kind of what goes into that readiness uh to move into critical juncture?

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Well, you know, it's uh some people um are built to are built to um like if there's a need, uh they arise, okay. Um for some people they arise and they just move, okay. And in this country, uh like uh there's more of an instinct to arise and move than to arise and look around and see uh who are the people you can gather together who will move with you. Okay. And I think that there was some of that that happened in Detroit because there are people who actually had community before the collapse. Okay? They had community before the collapse. I live in a place, right? Hawaii is a place where there is community, right? And it's a community that has survived of various waves of migration, of various uh changes in governance structures, uh, the move probably too quickly from um indigenous moments to modernity. Okay, and yet the notion about community in a place and place being part of community not only survive, but there are many places in Hawaii where uh it thrives to such an extent that people don't talk about it because it's just life, it's just how you live, right? Okay. I know that that is not the case everywhere. And that so there are places where like there where like if you see what is happening in Hawaii, if you visit Detroit, if you hear the story of what happened in Maine, that you would be emotionally inspired. Why can't we do that where it is we live? And um the answer to that question is uh as long as there are a a we rather than me and I, you got it. You got the possibility, right? And as long as you meet whatever is possible there, rather than try to put together some kind of complicated program called something something and create a 501c3 and go down that road, right? Okay, then you have a shot at it because every day you'll get up, like the people in Detroit, like people in Maine, people in Hawaii, and you just see what's going on and you step in. Right? You see what's going on and you step in. So there's like a a getting ready, but I would say don't take too long. Don't make it drawn out, yeah. Don't make it too complicated, right? If you do that, I think you're in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

I think you're in trouble. You know, this has been great, but I I think we need to um uh you know move on. And if we could just close out this a bit, and then uh in a little bit um we'll have another conversation. How about that? I'd love it. It's good. Okay. All right. Hello friends, we're back here with Ariel. We're having a very lively and intense conversation about the opportunity of collapse.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, I think where you started this conversation was about the interval that it makes change possible amidst crisis. And I think about um what you've said sometimes, like never waste a good crisis. Yeah, right. Um and one of the ways that we may waste a crisis perhaps is to think that we can go backwards, right? And to see that opening, say, let's just go back to where we came from, right? And um, because also we started this conversation talking about my nerdy physics background, I know that space and time only move in one direction, right? You you really gotta only move forward. And so, what kind of guidance do you have for folks in thinking about the times that we're in, the crises that we're in, and how we look for these little openings that you shared, even just turning to a fellow neighbor on the street. Um, but really think of it as something where we're moving forward.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Okay, so uh yes, this is actually something that is worth teasing out a little bit, okay, which is to say that uh as humans, we don't like to change a lot, right? We would rather have stability. Okay, and um people for whom uh all kinds of change all the time is what is normal for them, okay, are outliers in the human race. They're outliers. And so this part about wanting things to be stable and then therefore, uh, can we just return to a time when that was the case? Okay, so I would say we have to end up stepping in into our understanding about what these times really are. Okay, and part of that understanding is that uh you have to understand that uh there is as good a chance about things getting worse as they are of things stabilizing where they are right now, and very little chance that it'll go backwards, right? So okay, so they could get worse, or this could be our life, okay. But it's not gonna be, well, sometime, let's say 10, 15, 20 years before the pandemic. Okay. Because if you look at the that moment, it's not, oh, this was just a few years before the pandemic and everything was going all right. We already had lots of signs, and that uh people who were uh observers, uh who were thinkers, who are scientists, uh who were economists were saying, right, okay, things are beginning to unravel. So this this part of um although it doesn't feel rational uh to move into a crisis, okay, the we have to interrupt the notion that it's somehow rational to stay in place. Okay. So, you know, um now will peep will people do it on a wholesale basis? Unlikely. That said, that said, there's more and more evidence of people arising in larger and larger and larger groups, right, to uh interrupt things that people said, no, this is this is how things are gonna be. And the people who are rising and saying, no, these are not how things are gonna be. And that when they're doing that, interestingly, the people who are doing that, who have been the most successful, are the ones who are not only in that advocacy mode, but they are taking care of each other as they do it. And when they're doing that, they're growing a new muscle, right? A new muscle that we really need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

So and I think about the going back to your example of Detroit, when there were so many vacant lots, one of the first steps that folks shared that they did was to actually have to mow the lawn, right? So they said, you know, we didn't just have to mow the lawn once, we had to mow the lawn and then remove all the trash that it accumulated and then mow it again, and then dig out more trash. And it took several times. And so I think a little bit about also um is the cultivation of the we and the moving into this moment uh as much about the maybe stripping away as it is about um the doingness of things.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Yeah, there's the literal part, right? Where you can see because the ground is open, um not only like what used to be there, but what can be there now that it's cleared, right? Now it's clear as I think. So that that's also about um how do you uh get ready is is that you have to clear your own decks to open up space to see it's only then that you really know what your true possibility is. Okay. Because otherwise it you can basically say, well, okay, all of this is pretty interesting, you know. I've listened to a couple episodes, but I really don't have any time, you know, uh because things are so urgent right now. Uh, you know, I have to show up at my work in a different way. I don't know whether or not my job will be there very long, you know. Uh uh every moment that I have, I'm just holding on to stuff, holding on to things, right? Okay, okay. Yes, that is the state of affairs. Okay. Um but even in that, there'll be ways in which we essentially need to like take out anything that we've been spinning on. There's what we're doing, and then there's what we're spinning where we're we're like uh it it feels like we're doing a lot, but we're just like like uh turning in place over and over and over and over again. Okay. And as I said to some folks, uh that once you get into a particular cycle, then you are clearly in a very urgent survival cycle without making any movement that would move you into a place beyond survival. Okay, no swimming instructor would leave a student uh at the dog paddling and floating stage, right? Okay, and say, Okay, you're good to go. Right, right, right, right. It's like okay, no, you have to actually make some forward movement. Like, in fact, at some point, if you didn't actually try to swim, you won't survive very long.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Gonna use up your energy to use up all your energy.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So uh clearing the decks, that's one of the things that we can do for listeners and viewers. Uh-huh. Um, that might mean letting go of some things that they're spinning. Might be that. What what else could clearing the decks be? And and then we'll uh uh have something to start with.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Well, clearing the decks would be also uh it's like uh it's like uh assessing um what you thought this part of your life would be uh helps to clear the decks, right? That uh so the future is not a foregone conclusion, which you know uh actually in this particular season we're gonna talk about, but we won't try to do it in this right at this moment, that's to come. Um that uh we could fill up all of our uh the our thought energy by having a predetermined plan about uh what we are about, you know, uh and who we are and what we thought this time of our life would be. Like. Okay, and and we could we could do that. And um, and I will acknowledge that if you clear some of those decks, there'll be a little bit of mourning about that. But there might also be a little excitement about oh, maybe I get to do something that'll count, that'll matter, right? And mattering, okay, matters. Yeah. I have a I have a uh my oldest student, not by time but by age, is in his 90s. His name is Vernon. I won't say his last name for his privacy, but you know, Vernon was telling me about some things that he's in conversation with folks, or he's trying to get people, um most of who are a bit younger than him, uh, to be in conversation about. And he says, you know, and and and they just won't go there. And um, and you know, I said to I said to Vernon, I said, you know, Vernon, back in the day, you know, just about the the time when there's a written word, but it would be uh a scribe who would actually write everything, no printing presses yet, and it'd be a scribe. And then the first presses, which would be uh in a process in which it would actually be beautiful art, but a very slow printing process, that it would be common for things that would be the earliest forms of dictionaries or encyclopedias to have uh illustrations. Okay, and the word sage uh would have uh a drawing of an old Chinese man with a long beard, of course, right? Okay, and a staff, right? And that would be like the illustration of a sage, okay. Uh and uh taking the origin story out of why they would have a Chinese man there, the illustration is about uh our wisdom not be bound by our age or station in life. Okay, right, and that um there's always something more to learn, and right now uh what we're really counting on is that en masse uh for the human race, there's a lot more that we can learn and that we could learn together. So I would say that um today you would have to never say it is a sage. You would have to have a plural form of that, right? Uh and it may be some new word that you make up, and what it would mean is wisdom keepers. And what the definition of wisdom keeper is someone who never believes that they know all the shit that there is to know in the world. Tally one man. Right? And they just keep going and going and going, right? And and that would be what would make it possible for us to take advantage of this interval of ji. Can I read something for you? Yeah. I'm gonna read from you from When No Thing Works, and it's chapter four, and it's called Threshold, which is the word Ji. Okay. So it's a poem. Okay. Gi opens the door, and from this threshold a horizon beckons. Should we walk forward or not? Heads down in the chaos of the moment, how can we see what lies ahead or around the bend? Not seeing, not hearing, not feeling the timeplace yet to be, the threshold, a gate closed, heads down caught in the moment's endless chaos, endless urgencies and urgent suffering, and the ego of our response. G, itself unseen, unheard, unfelt, this time place within threshold a locked gate, bound in anxiety's foggy shroud, entangled and yet all we need here, feet on ground, raise our gaze to the horizon, breathe again, breathe again, breathe again. All we need here alone, cast adrift, in spiraling search, one other, one plus one, more than plus a wonderful and the Sufino, two others one plus one plus one, a stable stool for others to sit upon, suddenly more, becoming we a human threshold, arising beyond individuality's false promise, isolating power starts with one, gains possibility with two, and launches beyond at three, a sturdy platform for others to join themselves just one and one and one, a human threshold arising beyond, breaking bread, sipping tea, steaming rice, sharing stories at fits and starts, perhaps remembering beyond the deafening clamor of human demands, beyond and within, hollowed out, now filled, with stories shared, rice steamed, tea sipped, bread broken, revealing tastes differ, hunger shared, thirst is thirst. This thing, this human thing, connection desired, even in grievance, we seek affirmation. So why not impossibility? Why not? First, lift our gaze to the horizon, walk there, walk there, walk there. Each step a leap across the threshold, the juncture where change begins. G. Thank you folks. See you back next time. Of we ho. The Horizon Story Podcast is produced by Bryson Ho and Sarah Demarest de Rivera. Hosted and written by me, Norma Wong. Executive Producer Na'alehu Anthony, featuring Ariel Jacobson, for Collective Caceleration, Kelly Miller, for OEV TV, Ken Sato, Wesley Kealoha, Courtney Leong, Jeff Lee, and Ivy Lagalagod. For Pa'akai Communications, Jamila Silver, Diana Hahn, Pearl Thule, Christine Matsuda. Hair and Makeup by Melody Levy. Mahallo to Kalihi, the land of my birth, ancestors, teachers, collaborators, and friends, Rosie Abriam for the support, and Scott Nine and Todge James for the encouragement. The Horizon Story is brought to you by OEV TV, copyright by Collective Acceleration. Follow us on social at the Horizon Story. Questions to Hello at the HorizonStory.com. Visit us where you find your favorite podcast or at thehorizonstory.com.