Episode 6: 1+1 Is Always More Than Two

What if the most important element is missing from the periodic table? What if understanding that element could improve your strategy and help you take bigger, bolder leaps?

In this episode, Norma sits down with guest Nan Stoops to get gloriously wonky, digging into chemistry, math, and the core question of this episode: what is the Human Quotient, and why might it determine whether we, as a species, make it fruitfully to the other side of this collapse? 

In this episode:

• Did scientists actually get the periodic table wrong?
• Why 1+1 is always more than two
• What separates knowledge from wisdom?
• Why leaders and strategists should account for the Human Quotient (and what happens when they don't).
• Awake versus woke 
• What does it look like to spread a useful contagion?

Referenced in this episode:

• Scientific American, April 2026. Jeffrey Brandzburg, Limerick on Infinity
• When No Thing Works, page 80
• Who We are Becoming Matters, chapter 7

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Aloha, welcome back. Welcome back to the horizon story, where to be is not a question. You know, Shakespeare famously wrote, right, to be or not to be, that is the question. But here, if we keep pondering that, whether we're going to be or not be, then we're in the VAT of Kimchi. With apologies to all the folks who love the stuff, to be submerged in a VAT of it is not good eats and not a good time. To be is not a question. If we're going to make it to the other side of the collapse and more than just survive, which is what we should aspire to, then we're going to need the stuffness of human to become a human and to become a person who's going to be able to make your decisions through the lens of your own humanity. And so, in this regard, the thing that I talk about frequently is the human quotient. Nan Stoops is here with us to help interrogate this whole thing. The human quotient. And you know, when I say those words, you could just see like a little bit of joy bubbling up in Nan, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:32

I can barely contain myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

So, you know, Nerd City here, all wonks uh are welcome, right? We have a little wonk alert here, right? The human quotient.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I'm wondering if maybe I'm so excited about this, but um maybe we should go to a quick break so that I can really get set.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Okay. All right. We could go to a quick break in terms of setting that. But so it's that I am curious though, before we go to a break, can you just say a word about where that excitement comes from? Yes. Three words chemistry and math. Three words, chemistry and math. And on that, friends, we're gonna go to a quick break and come back to you with the work of the human quotient. Where to be is not a question. You know, Shakespeare famously wrote, to be or not to be, that is the question, and then all kinds of drama came just out of that. That whole way in which people might struggle with whether or not they're going to actually bring forward their full potential, or whether they're just going to fulfill the expectations that other people have of them. Well, if you are tuned into the horizon story, then what you need to embrace is this notion, even if there is a struggle to be is not a question. And that is why we really focus on the human aspect that needs to be developed. Yes, strategy, yes, fitting within a worldview, yes, let's be Neo in the matrix. But Neo cannot be in the matrix, and neither can we, if we are not in that state of becoming, becoming human, becoming more human, bringing out the human part of who it is that we are, and all humanity for that matter, all humanity. So we're joined again by my good friend Nan Stoops. And I don't know if you know you notice or not, but I just want to point it out to folks who are watching. Whenever I say the word human quotient, Nan Stoops has this really big smile on her face. And I have a hunch that she's going to like explore that with us. And so, you know, I just want you to like cue in onto that. Nan Stoops, thank you for coming back.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

So happy to be here, and I am so excited about the human quotient. Um, and interestingly, it's not the only thing that has made me smile today. Okay. You arrived onset with uh a limerick. And um, you know, it's very relevant to what we will be talking about and to the entire Horizon Story um series. So I'm just wondering um if you would be willing to share that with the listeners. The limerick. The limerick.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Okay, well, okay, since you all right, let me see if I have I have it here. Uh to give credit, it's due, it's in the Scientific American, let's see, April 2026, uh, and it's in the back. They always have a section with uh poetry about either science or math. And this one actually is a set of math limericks uh by Jeffrey Brownsberg, who's a retired math teacher and educational technology consultant. Okay. Is it the first one you want me to read? The one about infinity. The one about infinity. Okay. I searched for the end of infinity, an activity of great affinity. I took a dry run and kept adding one, but never quite reached the vicinity. Okay, here we have a laugh track by anyone who is a math wonk, right? Okay, or you could just watch Nan smile. Do you want to think about what it is you're going to talk about?

unknown 6:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Because it's it's serious business, but even in the lightest of poetry, we can find meaning that is connected to the seriousness. Okay. Well, let's let's take a moment.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

I'll do it. Ready? All right. Looking at one, and three, two.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Okay, Nan, you had your moment. Thank you for indulging me.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

I know. Thank you. All right. I'm I'm a little more contained now. Okay. Although you do have something to say about containers. So we don't want to be too contained. Okay. Okay. All right. Human quotient. So the human quotient, it it does sing to me, and it has ever since you you first started talking about it. And so I want to I want to say why. And that is because you you offered this particular visual representation of human quotient. And so immediately for any of us who who took chemistry, um, and especially for those of us who love chemistry, would recognize then human quotient, hu, as an element that's correct. That belongs on the periodic table of elements. And the thing about the elements is that each element has its own unique set of characteristics, and it also has information about how it might bond and interact with other elements. And so whether it's a metal or non-metal or a gas, right, each element has its own unique thing about density and boiling points and melting points and so forth. So if human quotient is an element, would you talk about the unique characteristics of HU?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Okay. Let's let so I I'm just gonna start into it, and I'm just gonna recognize here that there are many more characteristics of the human quotient than we could uh possibly lay out at this moment. So I want you to like feel free to interrupt me as I go along. You do. Okay. I just want to make sure. Okay. First of all, it's that I remember when you first actually uh you know said to me, is it like the periodic table? I remember when you when you said that. And I remember having the guttural sense of, yes, and frequently it's the element we don't list. Okay? Yep. So it's like the missing element of the periodic table. And it has all that, it has everything to do with chemistry, okay, more than anything else, which is without the human element, you cannot actually uh make anything happen. Right? And we frequently leave the human element out of it.

unknown 10:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

So to what it, I mean, I you know, it's like um a non-scientific term, I would say, is it's the stuffness that is required that would make it different than an enterprise in which you are just moving it around by virtue of automation, or robots, or people who just blindly, uh, deafly, without saying anything, without feeling anything, just went about the business and did what it is that they were told to do, or did what it is they thought they should do, or did only what they thought they can do. Okay. And that would be describing a human without the human quotient, right? So there's that aspect of it that's extraordinarily important.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

I mean, it's no accident that it is about chemistry. And um if if if we could add additional elements in addition to the human quotient, to the periodic table, do you have any sense of what what those might be?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Well, I think there's a little bit of controversy among people who think about these things. Ah okay. And I'm just gonna take a risk here and say it out loud. Okay. Okay. And that is some people believe that the spirit is part of the human quotient. Uh-huh. And some people believe it's a separate element onto itself. Okay. I am of the mind that it could be separate, but if the human quotient does not combine with the spirit quotient, then we don't have a complete formula, you know, like a complete being. Like those two things are made to be together, and they are sometimes separate from each other. So, you know, just naming that, and this may be the first time that I've said it out loud.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Well, it's a really important point because if we just take elements, each one unto itself, right? That actually I I think in the study and practice of chemistry, what makes it so interesting is how they interact with each other and what happens for better and for worse when they interact and how we learn from that. So spirit quotient, human quotient, might there be others?

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Well, there might. There might be others. I am of the mind that there is discovery to be made, okay, with respect to that, and that part of that discovery is that just because we're naming the human quotient as being an element, we do not yet know all of the aspects of the human quotient that are primal to what you know, what the human quotient is, and also primarily important for the endeavor that we're going about. But I think we have a sense of what some of them are. You know, we've we've talked about this before, right? Courage being so essential to the human quotient. And that part of it, not being about not being afraid, right? In fact, courage without some fear only means you're being reckless. That's not courage at all. Right? So courage is what you do in the face of fear. And, you know, we're just acknowledging there's a lot to be concerned about, anxious about, afraid of right now.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Yeah. Yeah. Um, before I kind of move on to the quotient side of human quotient, I wonder if uh, you know, we might have listeners who are like me and they they would want to have a list, a short list of the characteristics of the human quotient. Okay. Would could would you maybe rattle a few of those off? Rattle a few of those off.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Okay, well, let's see. Um, so there's a part around uh, you know, the the most intangible part uh, I would say, of the human quotient is is there a person who is awake right now, paying attention to what is going on, even if you don't understand what that is, are you awake and alert to everything that's going on? Okay. Um, in some paths, they call that uh, you know, uh presence or consciousness or things of that sort. And we can talk about that later. But I just think of that as being awake, okay, which is not the same thing as being woke. So I prefer awakeness to wokeness. Okay. Okay. As I mean I can hear a little, maybe a little stirring. A little stirring, yes. I hope it's stirring and not judgment. Yeah. Okay, right. So I have no judgment with respect to being woke, but that notion of being awake somehow feels to me like it's more arising. You know, as in the thing that happens when you stir out of a slumber and you come into a situation and you have eyes wide open. Okay. So eyes wide open, maka allah, right, is a very clear human characteristic.

unknown 16:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Uh a machine cannot be makaala. Okay, it could observe and record, but it cannot be awake and inquiring, being curious about things. Curiosity is part of the way in which we figure things out. It's like it's to know everything is not a state of wisdom. Right? So knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing. And we have so much information floating around all the time, coming in from everywhere, bombarded by all of this, right? But all of that information doesn't mean that we're going to be the humans who are taking to heart what we need to take to heart, making the inquiry, and then making the wise choices. So, wisdom, you know, much more so than being knowledgeable. And then clearly, because I believe I'm I am of this place and this is where I learned this, but I have learned that it is a quality that in Hawaii we have a name for it, but it doesn't mean we have uh special privileges or rights around it. Okay, and that is aloha. So if I go to uh the uh continent of Africa, if I go to the island of Bali, if I go down into uh the far reaches of uh close to the uh uh equator, just off of the equator, on the place that is called uh you know um South America, right? If I go to any place on Earth, you will find beings that as a person from Hawaii, I could say, that is someone who has aloha. You know, they have that way in which they can recognize another being, whether it's human or not, and have that sense of affinity, which is infinite. I'm gonna just bring as many of the characteristics of the limerick in there as I can, which is really aloha is like it is um there are no conditions associated with aloha except integrity to the mutuality that we would have with other beings, that they would be as close to us as relatives, even if we have never met them before, and that we would extend that sense of relationship, and it would not only be about uh uh a passing thing. We would go to the depths of what that is, and with aloha, aloha being the wisest extension of compassion, as you might have. So we'd say compassion, you know, a deep well. Aloha, the well itself.

unknown 19:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

So I'd say these are primary, the primary ones. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

May I ask you a couple of quick questions about the quotient? Sure. Okay. So this is the math. Yes. Yeah, so so in math, um the uh a quotient is um it's is the result of division, and it's also about amount and magnitude. So is it is it possible that the human quotient might be the result of this current time of great division um and strife?

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Oh, that's interesting. I would say that here we're talking about the human quotient as being the uh the essential element. Okay, the essential element, uh, when combined with other elements, make possible even greater things. Okay? Okay. All right. So it's it's it's it's like uh, and I would say that uh that unfortunately, I'm just gonna use that word. Unfortunately, you're correct, which is to say that it could be cut out of us and absent. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so it's like, and the part that gets cut out of us wouldn't be necessarily the characteristics, for example, like courage, for example. Okay, but what would get cut out of us would be the spirit part of the human quotient. And as a spirit part of the human quotient leaves, possibility leaves, energy leaves. And in that vacuum, right, darkness descends and violence accumulates. Okay. So it's that if you want to actually interrupt all of that, just bring back the human question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

So then what about magnitude?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

What about magnitude? I think we're gonna have to actually save that one for a little bit. Yeah, we need a little preparation for that. Okay? Yeah. Alright, we'll be right back.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

What to do when nothing works. With wise and witty pros, Zen Master and Indigenous strategist Norma Wong reflects on this question and more in her acclaimed first book, When No Thing Works. Norma weaves poetry, storytelling, and meditation, inviting us to imagine a horizon of possibility beyond crisis. Hard copy and audiobook available now. Shopbookshop.com and support your local bookstore.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Welcome back. We're here with Nan Stoops talking about the human quotient. And you left us right with magnitude. Magnitude.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Magnitude. Okay. Yeah, so I think there might be a number of ways that we could approach the subject of magnitude, but I I want to start with um with reading something from the uh the first book, actually, When Nothing Works, and this is page 80. It is the human quotient, HU, that will determine whether we, the human race, will make it fruitfully to the other side of this fraught and fought timeplace. Whether we move from frenemy to tolerance, tolerance to acceptance, acceptance to being in relationship with, being in relationship with to mutuality, mutuality to interdependence, yes, please, may we. May we, yes. We invite ourselves into the discovery and connection. We, the ready, the willing, the open, becoming. Too much to ask? Farther, beyond, buried deep, and hidden behind the many identities, our greatest possibilities lie. So I think that there is something about that progression that you take us through to the um the many identities and our greatest possibilities. I think that's about magnitude. And um I just wonder if you want to illuminate any of that for us.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Okay. So the magnitude part of it for me is that uh we can do this one by one by one. Okay, right. Uh, or uh all kinds of people could look at each other and decide and actually just stand into it. Okay. And I think both of these things are happening right now. So I'm not talking about this theoretically, right? I've I, you know, I see what's happening uh even in this country, let alone in other places. And as things get a little more difficult, people are like looking into themselves and saying, well, what am I called to do? Right? And when they just literally, if they just lift up their head and then they start to move a bit, then what happens is they um their own potential magnifies, okay, and it attracts other people. It attracts other people.

unknown 25:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

You could uh call it leadership, but I think that that is not giving it its full uh uh potential, okay. It's it's really about you know this uh this humanity ship that is arising in people individually. Okay. And then sometimes you see whole peoples arising, and it is the most inspirational in the unlikely places. Okay you know, in a rural part of uh of this country, uh, where uh by all voting standards, you would think that people would have a particular ideology and therefore support the notion of identifying and removing every single migrant that exists, every single immigrant that exists, every single refugee that might exist, and to just remove them. And that indeed, you might have made that judgment based on their political uh their their political choices. And in those places, people just uh coming together, yeah, right, right, and just uh doing stuff for people, right? Making food for each other, offering up their homes, picking up their prescriptions, taking care of their children, yeah, right, recognizing humans as humans. It's like you you cannot recognize a human, by the way, as a human, unless that humanity exists in you. So there is the the magnifying of things, right? The magnitude that arises when it's um one plus one. You know, the um the Sufi says, right, one plus one, right, equals two, but you're forgetting the plus. Ah, all right, okay. And so add that to my math repertoire. Add that to your math repertoire, right? Okay. Bringing in essentially that the spirit quotient of what happens. That one plus one is always more than two when it's one human plus another human. Assuming that it's actually the human that's showing up, the human quotient that's showing up. Okay. Yeah. Rather than this just like automated, you know, auto automatic machines, right, walking blindly from place to place, right, without listening, without feeling, right, without having a coherent thought. Many thoughts, but not a coherent thought. Okay. So yeah, it's there's there's a math aspect, there's a science aspect, and then there's an intangible aspect. But it all comes together and is essential to the strategy of moving us from our stuckness into a place uh where we fix our problems and create new possibility.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

That's the way it works. I I think maybe that's a good lead-in to talking about big leaps.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Um, and uh I also, as you were talking, I was thinking about contagion, you know, in terms of the one plus one and so on and so on. And um we tend to be exposed to contagion, uh, I think in a more negative uh way, right? The contagion of hatred and contagion of violence and um contagion of oppression, disease, whatever those contagions might be, but really to think about contagion as also the the humanity, right, and the human quotient and the ways that, you know, as you described, we see people actually spreading um spreading those um as well in some of the least expected places.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Well, you know, before we get to uh more math, right? Like so it's like uh uh laughter is contagious. Yeah, right. Yeah. When um people uh tickle other people or are tickled by other people physically, right? It's like people who are not being tickled across the room feel tickled, right? You know, so it isn't only the bad stuff that is contagious, I think forget about that. Yeah, we forget that, yeah, you know, yeah, we forget, you know, there there are terms in the in the human language that express that, right? It says, for example, love is in the air. Okay, all right, you know, springtime evokes that because it seems that nature itself is having a love fest with each other, right? That would allow for you know many young'uns to be born, whether their plant life or their animal life, and all of that. And the very scent of that possibility, and in the scent of possibility, right, we're buoyed by that. And we want to join in that, and that is a contagion. Yeah, it's a contagion.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Let's see if there's time later for the for the rabbit limerick speaking of blooms in the spring. Okay, remind us rabbit limerick.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Okay, okay, all right, all right. Okay. More math. More math. Okay. The formula. Big leaps equal strategy to the power of the human quotient. Yes. Okay, let's break that down. Okay, that's from chapter seven. Okay. That's from chapter seven of who we are becoming matters. All right. Okay. All right. Could could you hold that up again? Yeah. Okay. All right. So big leaps equals strategy to the power of the human quotient. And so essentially I'm saying is if you don't have the human quotient in the picture, can you just like cover that part uh with your hand? Yeah, there you go. Okay, so if you just have that, then you could say that you might have leaps, but they're not going to be big. Okay? Because you don't have the power of the human quotient behind the strategy that would make a strategy more than what it says on the paper. Right? It's like if it's if strategy is just about executing a particular plan, it doesn't have that energy factor and that persistence, that determination, the courage to be able to lean in when things are really rough, when you get to a place where something is stuck, that the human quotient is required in order to find a way around that without stopping. Okay. And all of that is not going to be possible. So it's like, you know, from time to time, uh, well, so there was a time when I mostly made my living basically as being a strategy thought partner. Okay. And one of the mistakes that I made early in that pathway is that I would be looking for the best strategy. And what I learned is that you have to offer the strategy that takes into consideration the humans that are going to implement it. Or just have a piece of paper. Yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Just have a piece of paper.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

So the thing about this formula is it doesn't say strategy plus human quotient. It doesn't say strategy times human quotient. It says strategy to the power of the human quotient. And so um what's the what's the exponential um implication then of the formula?

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Okay. First of all, it is exponential. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Which you're not going to find if you add or you multiply. Why not? Well, it's math. Right? It's it's it's math, right? Okay. So it's like um three plus five equals eight. Okay. Three times five is three, nine. Oh, three times five is fifteen.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Okay. So three to the power of five is three, nine, forty-five times five times.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Somewhere up there. Okay. All right, okay. So you were gonna take a break and you're going to actually do the math.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

I went the wrong direction. Okay. It's three, nine, twenty-seven, eighty-one, so on.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Okay, there you go. There you go. Get the math correct.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Okay, so that number, much higher, yes, right, than eight, okay, or fifteen. You cannot get to that larger number, to the bigness of the leap if you're going to add the human quotient into strategy or you're going to multiply it. Okay. So therefore, right, the relationship is really about the power of the exponential aspect of this particular element. So, yeah, so this is intentional. It's intentional.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Okay. Oh, it's so tempting to bring my math formula about relationships into this because I think it's a complicating factor. Right? Okay. So Go ahead, go ahead. Okay, so I don't have a thing, but if we if we think of um uh the the number of relationships that exist in any group, right, that the formula for that is two to the x power minus x minus one. Okay. Okay, so another another exponential kind of thing where x is the number of people in the group. And I and so in terms of strategy, right, the relationships that are necessary in a human quotient sense to bring forward big leaps, I think that formula about relationships potentially can bog us down a little bit. So um how do we how do we acknowledge that, but also keep moving?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

The way you do that is you build with the people that you have the deepest relationships with. Okay. Period. Okay, and that's it. All right, okay? Yep. All right, let's let's take a quick break and come back. All right, thanks so much. We'll be back.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

What to do when nothing works. With wise and witty pros, Zen Master and Indigenous strategist Norma Wong reflects on this question and more in her acclaimed first book, When Nothing Works. Norma weaves poetry, storytelling, and meditation, inviting us to imagine a horizon of possibility beyond crisis. Hard copy and audiobook available now. Shopbookshop.com and support your local bookstore.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Yeah, so the the thing that you were saying before the break about um moving forward with the ready and the willing and the people that we're in relationship with. Um what does that what does that mean for the possibilities around the human quotient?

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Well, it means that the relationship is not a limiting factor, it's a magnifying factor. Right? It means that the endeavor that we're about to embrace is going to be more than you or me, and even more than you plus me, right? That there is this part around that the glue of the relationship, the web that you would have and that I would have, that would be just brought into this. And here it is, what we're doing is we're creating a new commons, right? We're creating like new ground that we're willing to make, not only make possible, but to bring it into into the light of possibility, okay, by naming things and doing things and saying things, okay. It's that the relationship is like spirit, okay, is like um uh what would allow us to move through difficulty that we cannot do by ourselves. Okay, so I could say I have all the courage and enough for everybody, but that will never be true. Because what that means is if I get somehow waylaid or I'm tired, right, or I go and do something else, then my courage will be missing. And if you're counting on my courage as being the only thing, right, then there is no we. Yeah. There really is no we, right? So, right, relationship is the deeply woven relationship, the pilina that we have, is part of what will make it possible to reach that state of magnitude, right? Magnitude. It's like it's an inflating, uh usefully inflating factor without being inflationary as far as uh you know, like like creating things that are not there, right? It's very real, even though it may feel intangible, and therefore it's priceless. Okay. I mean, in relationship, what we can do is we can tell the stories about what it is that we have done, and the stories of where we hope to go to, and the stories that have not been created yet. It's like it's the relationship that will help us figure things out. I mean, it's like the central question to us, if to be is not a question, is what stories are we telling and we're learning and that we're willing to risk to make true? That it's it's it's really all in that, this thing called the human quotient. I'm sure that we're going to explore this a lot more, but I hope that this conversation that Nan and I have had has given you a sense that it isn't like a cut and dry thing. There are essential elements, and it is both a human thing and a math thing and a chemistry thing and a spirit thing. And I would bet you, as a person who has a long history of ancestors, who were good at this thing of betting on humans, right? Betting on humans. I would bet you that you know it when you see it, when you feel it in yourself or in other people. And that in of itself is a useful contagion. Thank you for being with us. Uh we will be back in a bit, and at that time we'll be back uh with Lehu, who's going to help us bring this whole season of episodes to a useful conclusion. Thank you. Thank you, Nan. Thank you. The Horizon Story podcast was produced by Sarah Demarest de Rivera and Bryson Hole. Hosted and written by me, Executive Producer Naalehu Anthony, Associate Producer Scott Nine, featuring Nan Stoops, for Collective Acceleration, Kelly Miller, for OEV TV, Ken Sato, Wesley Kealoha, Courtney Leong, Jeff Lee, and Ivy Lagodlagde. For Paakai Communications, Jamila Silver, Diana Hahn, Pearl Tilley, and Christine Matsuda, Hair and Makeup by Chris Jose. Mahalo to the place of my birth, ancestors, teachers, collaborators and friends, Rosie Abriam for the support, and Todge James for the encouragement. The Horizon Story is brought to you by OEVTV, copyright held by Collective Acceleration. Follow us on social at The Horizon Story. Questions to Hello at the Horizon Story dot com. Visit us where you find your favorite podcasts or at thehorizonstory.com.