Episode 5: Do You Have the Guts to Evolve?

We're living through a moment that demands more than business as usual. So what does it actually look like to interrupt old habits, make consequential choices, and pivot? If evolution begins with us, how do we rise to meet these conditions instead of retreating into what's familiar?

Norma and Nan dig into the nature of courage, habit, and what it really takes to grow.

In this episode:

• Identifying our habits & why interrupting them is an act of courage
• The gift of not taking yourself too seriously
• What community organizer Grace Lee Boggs understood about revolution (and why it still matters). 
• What it actually takes to evolve (and why most of us resist it)

Referenced in this episode:

• Starre Vartan, The Stronger Sex
• The Boggs Center 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Hey, Nan Stoops. Norma Long. Did you know that women outlive men when the circumstances are the most dire? Have you heard that? I think I've read it somewhere. Okay. So by you. Well, I was actually quoting from a book that recently came out, and that book was written about the science that has been discovered, that there's actually something to be said about women, and the title of this book is called The Stronger Sex, which is uh provocative. Yes. Right. The author's name is uh Star Vartan, and I hope that I pronounce their name correctly. Okay. And um, this is the proposition that the author gives, and that is that the physiology of women, so this isn't about muscular structure, for example. There's you know a lot of evidence about the muscles within uh a body that is more male-gendered, right, are essentially uh different and then therefore uh offer like more strength than it would be for women. But he's talking Starvartan is talking about other qualities. Okay, and a quality that Starvarton is talking about is that literally that the number of genes in a woman outstrip the number of genes in a male in terms of physiology at birth, okay, and that women also have like a greater variety of certain kinds of genes. And the greater variety they have is of immune genes, the genes that allow for immunity to exist and for it to renew itself in the physiology, which is also it has a dark side too, okay. And the dark side is that uh you have more immune disorders, autoimmune disorders in women. So that's that's a dark side of this. Okay, but there's another aspect about why this author and science believe that uh women have more stained power physiologically uh when we're under duress and stress, okay? And that is because our small intestines are longer. Okay, aren't you gonna ask me like what does small intestines have to do with it? Okay. What do small intestines have to do with it? Okay. So we can extract more nutrients from the same amount of food. Uh okay, because it has to make its way through, right? All the way through. And it's in the small intestines that that happens rather than the big intestines. Okay? All right, so um, so I could say something about small matters, but we'll put that aside. That small intestines allow more nutrients. Okay. Okay. And so therefore, if you're in a drought situation or there isn't enough food or anything of that sort, okay, that the female physiology can actually pull more nutrients out of the same amount of food. Okay. So thus we can say. You ready? I'm ready. Women have more guts. Okay. You got that? I got it. Okay, all right, okay. And more guts is what humankind is gonna need as we move into this next period of time. Okay. Okay, okay. So I managed to build a whole thing around science just for you, NASDAQs.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

I appreciate it. Uh-huh. And you know, I'm gonna say some of it is new to me. So I do appreciate that. Um, I I I have a couple of questions. Okay, okay. All right. So what might we do then to boost the immunity and the the ability to absorb nutrients um on the on the male side? Ah, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

So we would have to interrupt a whole lot of habit patterns in order to do that. And by the way, we have to do that on the female side too, right? Because there are lots of ways where even if our uh bodies are built for certain things, we could be self-sabotaging those things. Okay, so we can't just count on the fact that we have more guts for the guts to work for us. Okay? Okay, on that note, I think we should probably just move on and move on. Okay, friends, uh, we're gonna take a short break and then we'll be back with the real business at hand. Thank you so much. Thank you for being a good audience to us, and we hope that uh we're making your time worthwhile. Of course, what it is that you will be demonstrating is that irrespective of however it is that you were born, you're the people that have a lot of guts. Okay. So, guts. Okay. This uh there's the literal guts, and then there's the part about having the grit to do what it is that we need to do. And what is it that we would need to do? Is this thing that is a difficult thing to do, which is to interrupt our habits. But you and I have been in conversation about habits for a long time. I know it's one of your favorites. It is one of my favorites. Yeah. So how do you understand what habits are and why is it one of your favorite subjects?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

I think for me, the learning uh about habits was um really life-changing in a way, because I had to um remove myself from my comfort, comfort zone, which was actually a series of very patterned, um, kind of successful things, you know, that I was doing. And um, you actually said to me at one point, Nan, you gotta up your game. And it it kind of took my breath away because I thought I was doing pretty well. And um, and you were right. And so the I had settled into what I would say was a very um kind of series of habits from the time I woke up in the morning until the time I went to bed. And um it yielded a lot of benefits for me, and so there would be no reason to change them, aside from someone saying, you gotta up your game. And so I think um the way that I understand habits are just the the routine way that we keep doing things without thinking really about what those things are. And they are reinforced by external um supports, affirmation, um, that make it really easy to just continue. So they they can be there can be bad habits, habits that we deem as being bad. So there could be good habits, right? But they but the it's the patterning that um is so kind of pernicious.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

Okay, all right. So, you know, this thing about habits for me, um, you know, with the repetitive, unconscious nature of what habits are, right, with big and small, right, is like the the you have to want to do something about it, or it'll be the safest place that you can be. You could actually have a lot of success by just doing the same thing over and over again and be rewarded for it, right? Yeah, both internally as well as externally, from funders and from the community and all of that, right? You know, and so there's that part where you have to have a reason to interrupt it. And then interrupting is never easy, so you actually have to have the guts, you know, to interrupt, and that interruption will allow you to evolve. Right? So we say, here we're saying guts, but we're really talking about is like the grit that's within courage. Right. And you know, as you know, for me, like courage is not a static thing. Um, so it's it's not what you do if you are have no fear at all. It's actually the presence of fear that allows you to have courage, and therefore it's a gutsy thing.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Okay. Yeah. I'm just gonna keep playing that out. Okay. All right. All right. All right. So um, you know, like interrupting uh what what do you think are some of the more, you know, the the habits that are the most well-worn habits that actually keep us from moving forward?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Well, I was uh I I mean, if I could turn that back to you. I was gonna I was gonna ask you actually about um if othering is a habit. Um, because I think that is one of, you know, as you were saying in the prior episode, that is um one of the biggest challenges of this time. And so there's a way in which we could say othering is intentional, um, but sometimes I think it's also a habit. And so how is that true? And then if it is, how do we know when something is moving right from the intent, the intention into the habit?

SPEAKER_04 11:04

Okay, so yes, I would say that there's both a uh reactionary, reflexive nature to othering, uh in which case it is clearly in a habit pattern. And then there's a part of where you utilize people's uh tendency towards othering and you build it into a strategy. Okay? All right. So a lot of what you know you would I would call um uh immigration mania is a strategy that is built on people's reflexive habit, right, to blame other people for, in particular their economic woes, okay, and their uh their sense of uh uh cultural intactness not being you know uh watered down by anyone else, okay. And uh and you could build basically a strategy around that habit tendency in terms of how people think about things. So it could be both, both and and when they work together, it's a it's really a deadly mix. Really a deadly mix.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

There's something about um, like when you say the word reflexive, um, and like a reflex is it's actually there's something about it that's uncontrolled, right? It's like an impulsive, um, you cannot control it. So uh how how does that connect to this notion of of a habit? Um because if we can't control it, or can we?

SPEAKER_04 12:49

We can if we have a conscious discipline around it, okay, and that and that's the thing, right? So when when you say, for example, oh, somebody reacted in that way because they cannot help themselves, right? And when they cannot help themselves, what they're doing is they they're just they're lashing out, and they lash out with the belief that they can get away with it. So there's also part where power and can control can um can feed into the indulgence. And when you move into that particular realm, indulgence, it means that no, you can actually do something about it. Okay. You cannot help yourself, but yes, you can do something about it. Okay. So it's like like um, you know, I have I have some habit patterns. Do you have some habits?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Of do I have do I know your habits? Okay. I don't want to out you on those. No, no, that's okay. Go ahead. Do I have a I have habits? Yeah. You have habits. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the name of the wonky. The wonky. The wonky thing is a habit. Okay. Um, that you you you go um immediately into that kind of uh strategy uh fix, right, from the policy lens. Um I don't know, I'm curious. I think it's a habit, but you tell me.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Do you have a guess as to how I I uh interrupt it? So by the way, if you have a habit, doesn't mean it's not gonna arise, right? Sure. So it arises. But do you have a guess as to how I how what I do to interrupt it?

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Well, I mean, I I think given what you said about policy is not the fix, that my guess would be that you might say, okay, normal wrong, why are we going to a policy solution if you know it's not gonna in the long run, it is not gonna be the fix?

SPEAKER_04 14:56

Okay. So that would be rash uh using a rational reason, right, to go to it. So, yeah, and uh, and there's some of that that's going on. But do you have another guess as to what might be happening?

SPEAKER_01 15:11

No. But what's happening?

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Okay, all right. Well, so you know, I think that uh in one of those strange ways, I think that not taking myself as seriously as I used to helps to interrupt it. You have gotten funnier. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Nan. It is a compliment. Thank you, right. And I wasn't always funny, but that's gonna be a story for another episode.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Another podcast.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

Oh, it might be an entirely different podcast, but certainly for another episode in terms of we're gonna get there. But but I think self-humor is part of not taking myself so seriously. And if I don't take myself so seriously, it interrupts my usual thinking patterns, my usual thought patterns. It makes me like step back, get a bigger view, you know, don't think, don't be too attached to whatever it is that's going on. Okay, and that helps to interrupt.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

How do how do you balance, right? Because I think I also am someone, I try not to take myself too seriously. And um, and I know that we're in serious times where serious things are happening seriously to people. And so it's like we don't want to be glib about, oh, just don't take yourself so seriously. So how how do we balance both of those things?

SPEAKER_04 16:44

Like so you could be serious, and like I am a strangely serious person.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Or seriously strange person.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

Seriously strange person, right? Okay, both could work. But in the seriously, strangely serious situation, okay, it's whether or not when I say don't take myself so seriously, it's like the situation can be very serious. I could be very serious, but I could understand that whatever it is I'm thinking or that I'm doing or I'm believing is not the only thing, that it isn't the only right thing, right? That whatever it is that I am about is the center of attention. And that's part of like not taking yourself too seriously. Like so um Native Hawaiian, uh one of the uh values we essentially have, cultural values, has to do with ha-a-ha-a, which is humility, which we say to wear it with ha-a-heo, which and ha-a-heo to wear with ha-a-ha. In other words, wear pride with humility. And in your humility, understand that at its basic foundation, it's because you are proud of who it is you are, but you know that you are not the only one. Okay, so part of it is like if you not take yourself so seriously is about not thinking that you are the center of everything, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

I I also think, I mean, just one thing I've noticed over the years of knowing you is that in some ways the more serious the human condition has become, and the more serious, um the more seriously concerned you are about it. There's also been there have also been moments of like incredible lightness, you know, and um and joy and play and laughter. And um I think the the physi physiologically, that is um such an important way to to break to break the habits, you know, of seriousness and the the offshoots of that seriousness that actually can be so unhealthy for all of us.

SPEAKER_04 19:19

So it's been well we either yeah, we'll either live hope and live thriving and live possibility, right? Okay, or we're kind of full of it. Yeah, you know, so the situation could be really dire. Yeah, either either love and hope overcomes everything else, or um we're in the Vat of Kim Chi again. We're just we're you know, we're just there, right? So it's like living our entire life um with possibility uh does not mean that we ignore the situation that we're in. So that's another thing we're interrupting. We're interrupting that as being opposites of each other, right? And we're interrupting the notion that in one state of uh beingness, we cannot see, right, the harm that is going on. And in the middle of the harm, we cannot see the possibility. That's the only way we're gonna get out of it if we see the possibility. So you have to live the possibility, right? That's there's there's no way around that. Can I take a break? Let's. Okay, let's do that. All right, we'll be right back.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

What to do when nothing works. With wise and witty pros, Zen master and indigenous strategist Norma Wong reflects on this question and more in her acclaimed first book, When Nothing Works. Norma weaves poetry, storytelling, and meditation, inviting us to imagine a horizon of possibility beyond crisis. Hard copy and audiobook available now. Shopbookshop.com and support your local bookstore.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

And you know, Nan and I during the break were talking about what you're gonna use all this guts for, right? And I suggested that the most important thing right now is whether or not we choose to evolve, and that choice is so consequential that it's gonna require guts.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Evolve is a big word. Um so would you say more about what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_04 21:54

Okay, well, let me give you like the definition that I Use in the book first. And then I'd like your take on evolution as a person of science. Okay? All right. So uh this definition is from Oxford Online. And it says the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified. So developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth and the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form. Okay? Okay. So both of those aspects have meaning for me in the context that we're talking about. But before I go there, I'm interested in your take as a person of science.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Okay. I mean, I think when I think of evolution, um, I think of actually the external conditions that would drive uh a species of anything, plant, animal, marine, you know, any form of life, to be different so that it could continue to live in those new conditions. Um and so the the thing is for me is that it only catches the the creature, let's say, up to the point in time of that set of conditions. Um so it's a it might be a small change. Um and it doesn't it doesn't allow for what might come next, you know. And um so there I there might be ways in which evolution does not serve us. We think it does because it keeps us alive, but um but it only responds to a particular point in time and the conditions that exist at that time.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

So what that raises for me, right, when you think about that, is the question of whether all of the external conditions that are happening right now, okay, the ones that we're creating on a human basis, uh creating by our own creations, like technology, right, artificial intelligence, uh creating by our own ways in which we've decided uh to uh be in a war or not in a war, uh to stop people from migrating, you know, all of those many, many decisions. Uh and then economic conditions, and then weather conditions, conditions of the climate. We have this cascading polycrisis right now. So what's your take? Do those conditions actually then naturally take us as humans towards evolution? Or is something else going on?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Well, uh so that makes me wonder if evolution is a habit. Oh, I thought it's a natural Well, it's an it's a naturally occurring phenomenon. Uh-huh. But if if if our if our intellectual if our intellectual capacity would say, oh, well, we will evolve to keep up or to somehow counter or deal with the collapse, the collapsing conditions. That's very limiting. Um and and like, is there a way that we could say, you know, we see the conditions going like this. Evolution, a different kind of evolution, which in this context, I don't necessarily want to say a revolution, but I think just a different kind of evolution, a discipline around some evolution would say, we then have to go this way, right? So the collapse goes this way. Instead of saying, okay, we're gonna kind of go like this uh and evolve, like maybe a better way would be to go whew like that.

unknown 26:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

And that's a mathematical thing too.

SPEAKER_04 26:17

That's a mathematical thing. Uh now it would be, it would require a lot of choice and letting go. And guts. And guts in order to do that, right? I'm reminded that you know, one of my uh first memories of being in the same room with you is we were watching Gracie Boggs on a video because she was unable to travel at that point in her life, uh, somewhat more senior than I am now. And I remember she was wearing a t-shirt. Remember the t-shirt? Right? And the t-shirt, right, essentially, was the word revolution, but it had a parentheses around the R.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Okay. Right, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

And the parentheses around the R meaning that in her mind, evolution would be required in order for revolution to occur. That revolution is not just an uprising, it's really uh uh, or that could be one form of revolution, if you just uprise, but without evolution, revolution is incomplete, it's just a reflexive thing without changing anything at all. Because at the basis of it, right, evolution requires some kind of a change or transformation to occur. Okay, so but that notion, right, are the conditions dire enough for a conscious evolution to occur and what will it take from us?

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

That's an active question I have. Okay, I mean, so so one thought I have, I have a t-shirt also that says revolution. Well, I have that one too. Okay. But but but it says revolution, but it says it in a way that the uh the anyway, the letters L-O-V-E, if you look in the mirror, uh, they actually say love. So if you're facing me, what you see is revolution. If I look in the mirror, what I see is love. And I think that um that also is, I mean, you know, we have talked about this in other settings, that figuring out what we love, what is worth saving, not who, but what is worth saving, how can we do that is a part of this evolutionary process, you know, that um could be amazing.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

So I, you know, I this is not strictly within the uh the the parameters of science, okay?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

It's not Darwinian at all.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Oh, right, right. So uh that you know, like a way that I would think about this is evolution has a directionality that is moving in the direction away from devolution, where we devolve, we become lesser parts of who we are, less conscious, less possibility, less thriving, less love. Okay, and for me that would be devolving rather than evolving. So I don't think of evolution as being a neutral thing, for example. Yeah, dire conditions you change. And could you say that, well, if we change to be the worst parts of who we are, that's evolution too. I don't buy that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yeah, I don't buy that. Okay. You good with that? I'm good with it.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

You good?

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah. Okay. Do you want to say anything about how? Oh, okay. Or is that another getting too far ahead of ourselves?

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Well, whether it's ahead of ourselves or not, I think it's actually worth us kind of think about, right? So it's like one of the ways is to literally move out of our stuckness.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

Okay? Okay. All right. So, which non-humans tend to move faster than humans do.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

Which is why I think human migration is so interesting. You know, my peoples arrived at this place because of migration. All of my ancestors, whether the Hakka Chinese or the Native Hawaiians, and they arrived at this place, they would not have met each other if they had not migrated at different times for different reasons and different purposes. Okay. Usefully, right, they were moving towards more possibility and more towards possibility than away from bad things. Okay. And I think that that matters. I think that matters a lot. Okay. So human migration to me is is interesting because the migration, I think, is a more natural way in which we are part of nature. Right. Okay. So if like the um the people of the Dakota, the Lakota, Nakota, Dakota people, who are more of a like groups that would, they would say, uh, we meet around different council fires, but we are one people. Okay. And they're more nomadic than most because the land demands that. The land is such that if you just put everyone in that one place and they just stayed at that one place, the land would not be able to provide for the people. And so that they're more nomadic. And then in modern times, they've been stopped from that migration. And I would say their suffering has increased as a result. Okay. It's like you then have to bring everything to the people rather than the people move as conditions change, right? Yeah. Okay. So it's like the lobsters migrated.

unknown 32:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:32

So the mo it it used to be back in the day when I first when I first had my first lobster from the east coast was in uh Boston, Massachusetts. Okay. I went to a planning conference there, and I had my first East Coast lobster. And I couldn't eat lobster anywhere else after that. Yeah. Because it was just so delicious because the lobsters thrived in those waters and they were freshly captured, and then they were quickly cooked, and you ate them right away. And so you got like the experience at the peak of their thriving, and it would meet your thriving, and it would be love. Okay. All right, okay. Well, the best lobsters aren't in Massachusetts anymore because the waters as the climate changed, right, is that to meet more thriving conditions, they had to move farther north.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

Okay. So if we go to Maine, the lobsters now in Maine would be like the lobsters that I ate when I was in my 30s in Massachusetts, that are no longer there in Massachusetts, but they're their needs. In other words, to continue to thrive, they had to move. Okay. Mangroves move. Did you know that? I mean, like, it's kind of interesting to think about mangroves moving. Okay, all right. Like, like how do that does that happen? But you say like the ring of where mangroves grow on the uh in relationship to the equator has shifted northward, okay, as a result of climate shifts, okay, climate change. And they essentially have migrated into more thriving ground. So what does that mean, you know, for people geographically, right, which is why human migration means something, I think. But that story is still unfolding, it's yet to find its level of stability. Okay. And perhaps it can't find its level of stability because there's so much going on in the world that we we can't figure that one out. Okay. But what I do know is that we have a tendency to try to extract all things from one place, and that when we have stop extracting, we move on to another place to extract.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

And that's not the kind of migration that we need or that we should hope for. Okay. And so in lots of ways, right, it opens up the question for me is technology evolving us for it, or because of what technology needs in order to exist, you know, rare earth minerals, uh large, you know, uh places where all of the waste gets deposited, all of those kinds of things. Does it mean in some ways, in relationship to the land, are we devolving because of technology? You know, inconvenient questions like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Most inconvenient.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

Most inconvenient, okay? But these are not ordinary times. Right. And so I think that one of the ways that we can evolve is to face the conversation about how we need to change and transform, think about things, interrupt habits, you know, take a look at our evolution as not being singular, but in relationship to each other. You know, all of those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah. And not take ourselves too seriously. Because those those those conversations can be, you know, hard.

SPEAKER_04 36:46

Yeah, they can be hard. But luckily, you know, we have all those small intestines we can count on. Yeah. Okay. All right. Miles and miles of that. Right. Until we until we can lay down by the side of the road to rest. Miles and miles to travel. Okay, folks. Thanks so much. Uh, we're gonna take a little bit of a break um and then close on this episode. Thank you for being with us.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

What to do when nothing works. With wise and witty pros, Zen Master and Indigenous strategist Norma Wong reflects on this question and more in her acclaimed first book, When Nothing Works. Norma weaves poetry, storytelling, and meditation, inviting us to imagine a horizon of possibility beyond crisis. Hard copy and audiobook available now. Shopbookshop.com and support your local bookstore.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

You know, during the break, uh Nan asked me a provocative question, and I haven't had a chance to respond to it. So you get to hear at the same time Nan does.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

So um yeah, I was thinking about moving towards the close, and uh if we focus on habits, that can take us kind of in, you know, in a downward direction. So I really want to focus on evolution and um maybe have you talk to us about where does evolution begin?

unknown 38:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 38:31

So, you know, we can go with the definition about evolution being about the conditions. I think the conditions should prompt something within us as humans, and that it prompts something. So it's it's part of the mix, but it isn't actually where the evolution begins. Evolution begins with us, okay. And that requires a conscious response. And so the question then becomes how do we respond to all of these conditions? And instead of retreating into our habit patterns, how do we fruitfully evolve? Okay, and I I think that there's like a lot of ground, but it doesn't have to be as complicated as we're making it out to be. It's about taking steps, right? And um, do you mind if I read something? So this is this is a thing that I wrote uh a while ago when a group of young people were asking me for some tips. And I remember I remember at that time when they asked me that question about how I hopefully I didn't show it because at that point I didn't have a as much of a sense of humor as I did. But I felt a little huffy, you know, like tips, you want tips, you know, and and then I um recovered from that. Uh it took a bit, I recovered from that, and I formulated like this set of tips, okay? And since then I've added to it. So I'll read you the whole thing as it is. Okay. Okay. So with the theme, who we are becoming, all right, what would we need to do in order to evolve? Okay. To be is not a question. Take pride in our work without pride standing in the way. Have determination without stubbornness. Know that your point of view is only your point of view. Look no farther than the mirror to see obstacles in life. Strength without flexibility moves only that which is less strong than you. The resonance of voice is more powerful than words. Change the world by changing you. The universe knows best. Give yourself for the welfare of all beings, one by one, by one by one, by one. The universe is waiting. It's waiting for us. Dissonance aches for harmony, and harmony is not a singular note. A single step prepares us for a leap. Tell the story of the world we will work for to become true. And be a good ancestor for descendants yet to come. Those are my tips. Good tips for the young and the not-so-young. As a not-so-young. Yes. As a not-so-young, um, may I live into this. May we all. Thank you so much. We'll see you soon. The Horizon Story podcast was produced by Sarah Damares de Rivera and Bryson Ho, hosted and written by me, executive producer Na'alehu Anthony, Associate Producer Scott Nine, featuring Nan Stoops, for Collective Acceleration Kelly Miller, for OEV TV, Ken Sato, Wesley Kealoha, Courtney Leong, Jeff Lee, and Ivy Lagadlagde. For Pa'akai Communications, Jamila Silver, Diana Hahn, Pearl Tilley, and Christine Matsuda, Hair and Makeup by Chris Jose. Mahalo to the place of my birth, ancestors, teachers, collaborators and friends, Rosie Abrium for the support, and Todd James for the encouragement. The Horizon Story is brought to you by OEVTV, copyright held by Collective Acceleration. Follow us on social at The Horizon Story. Questions to Hello at the HorizonStory.com. Visit us where you find your favorite podcast or at thehorizonstory.com.